Red Hood and the Outlaws

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Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby Batman25JM » Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:36 am

Discussion and Reviews
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby Batman25JM » Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:37 am

Red Hood and the Outlaws #1 Exclusive Preview

http://comics.ign.com/articles/119/1195097p1.html


This looks pretty good. I'm getting pretty excited for it. I really dig that art. It has a Leinil Francis Yu feel to it.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby Arsenal » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:51 pm

I really liked it, the art was outstanding and the story is pretty good, adding some depth to Jason and making Roy a soldier of fortune is pretty cool. Starfire is a bit off and her not remembering humans is weird, why even have her have a past with the original teen Titans if she doesn;t remember it? Other then maybe for a year one book at some point.

Overall I really liked it, it was an action movie in comic form.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby Dr. Wade McNasty » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:21 pm

Agreed. It was a fine and wonderful issue. Starfire is a mystery but an interesting one. I'm a little bothered by all the bashing in other blogs and such that this issue and DC in general is getting. They act like the existence of these comics prevent the existence of other comics from existing.

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/2 ... erheroine/

It's like they just started reading comics and completely forgot about the beefcake 90s. I personally love how they ignore Marvel mostly and focus on DC, like they are the worst ones in spite of how horrible Marvel is with minorities and women. I'm beginning to remember why I stopped going to CA. If I wanted political bullshit shoved down my throat, I'd visit Fox News or Huffington Post.

In any case, a rough quote from Grant Morrison to end my little rant.

Here is Morrison's thoughts on the issue (actually said before SDCC) for those interested:

I’m all for it although I'm often surprised that female fans should feel left out of superhero comics considering the range of characters and role models available.

Off the top of my head and without looking at any comics, there's Stargirl, whom Geoff Johns based on his beloved sister; fashion-conscious, provocative, witty Emma Frost; ass-kicking powerhouse wife Big Barda; excitable, talkative upbeat Maxine Hunkel, grand-daughter of Ma; murderous pre-pubescent Hit Girl; geek girl librarian Barbara Gordon AKA Oracle; Clever, Goth-y showbiz girl Zatanna; chunky little kickboxing computer genius the Squire. None of these characters are eye candy tokens or bimbos or subservient housewifey types. And there are many more. Warren Ellis' smart-talking chainsmokers like Jenny Sparks, as well as his brilliant, cynical and pragmatic supervillainesses-cum-heroines from Thunderbolts. Brian Bendis' Avengers women. Gail Simone’s entire oeuvre. Alan Moore and J.H. Williams’ Promethea, in her various incarnations. The list is varied and grows longer all the time. Crazy Jane in Doom Patrol was inspired by Patti Smith circa "Horse". My recent take on Kathy Kane, the original Batwoman cast her as Maya Deren, a real-life genius who ought to occupy a place among the patron saints of any young lady of alternative disposition.

All of these characters have not only a range of different body types but a full spectrum of different personalities. I’d go so far as to suggest that there’s actually more natural diversity in body shape among female superheroes than among the male characters. Additionally they’re all pro-active, neither sex objects nor pure angels without flaws, and are as richly-developed as the form allows. If I can be optimistic again, I'd suggest that the portrayal of women in superhero comics has been improving steadily and is likely to continue to do so. There's always going to be good girl art and sexy swimsuit stuff but it goes hand in hand with good guy art and always has.

Obviously in superhero stories about idealized humans, it should come as no surprise that a high proportion of characters are portrayed as musclemen and supermodels. Look no further than Second Life for another demonstration of the same thing. However, it should be considered for debate how the alleged lack of relatable, realistically-proportioned physical role models among the superhero set that so often seems to bother female readers rarely troubled young male comics fans. Even those who were obese, underweight, ugly or shy tended not to be offended by the magnificent physiques of Superman or Thor.


As for Starfire, I think is more aloof and in many ways, racists to a degree than anything. She may be aloof because she is an alien. This is strongly hinted at when she says all humans look alike. People ignore this, despite the fact that virtually all aliens in the DCU and in other universes look at humans as some sort of backward apes. She's a little less racist but racist nonetheless and sees humans as mere playthings. It kind of mirrors how a stereotypical rich snob would view a poor person or anyone that is not them, for example, Paris Hilton.

That said, there are comics made for different audiences. Some appeal more to men. Some appeal to women. Some appeal to older people, some appeal to younger people. This is not a crime. Not every comic is made for everyone. Each has it's intended audience. Trying to make every comic appeal to everyone is a horrible thing and cannot and will never work nor can it happen. It's unrealistic. The sooner people understand this, the better off everyone, including the comic industry, will be. Literature and the movie industry understand this, it amazes me that comics and comic readers have not grasped this concept and yet another reason why comics are quickly becoming shit. I seriously think comics should all be labeled or released under various special imprints since people seem entirely too dense to understand what a comic will have and won't have.


/rant. Now that all that is out of the way, I have nothing more to say (hopefully). :lol:
Last edited by Dr. Wade McNasty on Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby Denim » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:39 pm

I hated this book. It should be retitled Douchebags and the sex object. That's pretty much how it read.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby Dr. Wade McNasty » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:50 pm

Denim wrote:I hated this book. It should be retitled Douchebags and the sex object. That's pretty much how it read.


You read it wrong then lol. Who was being a douchebag? There were no douchebags in my comic. Todd? Maybe. Red Arrow? Come on, he was a total bro. Sex object? Everyone has a near perfect body in comics lol. Everyone is a sex object.

How can anyone hate on DC's version of the A-Team?

Jason = Hannibal
Roy = Mad Dog
Starfire = BA

All we need now is Faceman...
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby Arsenal » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:32 pm

Denim wrote:I hated this book. It should be retitled Douchebags and the sex object. That's pretty much how it read.


I didn't that vibe at all

Red Hood and Red Arrow (Speed/Arsenal?) seemed more like buddies that are just smart asses to each other, hell I act like that to some of my friends that I am the closest to, honestly they were basically one step from your mom jokes, the worst side kick ever was on the same level.

As for the sex object, I can see that art wise and some comments made by others, but in terms of using her sexuality she was the one being shown as in charge.



Just book was good fun I really enjoyed it
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby D-Rock » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:34 pm

I enjoyed this. Something about the pairing of Jason Todd and Roy Harper really works for me. They're the type of characters that mean well, but always f*%k up in the end. The book also has a very different feel than other titles that, IMO, helps it stand out. Instead of a structured revolving door of rogues to fight, this is more along the lines of "let's see what crazy shit we get into next", and it has me intrigued.

Also, I don't get this negative reaction towards Starfire. This isn't anything new for her. Her race has always been more sexually driven.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby jaydee74 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:17 pm

This was okay. Nothing special but I do like the interactions between the characters.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby Joshua » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:26 pm

Based on the pages I saw, in regards to Starfire, I agree with Denim. It's nothing new for comics, but it's still degrading and playing to the lowest common denominator. Sure, Starfire has always been a character that didn't shy away from her sexual nature, but she wasn't some cold, slutty automaton with no emotional attachment. Sex to her was tied closely with feelings of love, something that doesn't seem to be present in her current incarnation. Again, I only saw a handful of panels so I am kind of shooting from the hip, but every panel I saw showed her posing in some impractical goofy way in an effort to showcase her scantily-clad body as much as possible. Sure, this isn't the first time we've seen this kind of treatment of female characters in comics (and won't be the last), but it sure is shitty writing.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby jaydee74 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:45 pm

Eh, Starfire's more recent attitudes has never been something I enjoyed. I liked her more when Wolfman was writing her and she was more full of life and saw things like she was seeing them for the first time and was just a more fun character. This really isn't the same Starfire I enjoyed back in the day and it kind of makes me sad.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby Dr. Wade McNasty » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:21 pm

Joshua wrote:Based on the pages I saw, in regards to Starfire, I agree with Denim. It's nothing new for comics, but it's still degrading and playing to the lowest common denominator. Sure, Starfire has always been a character that didn't shy away from her sexual nature, but she wasn't some cold, slutty automaton with no emotional attachment. Sex to her was tied closely with feelings of love, something that doesn't seem to be present in her current incarnation. Again, I only saw a handful of panels so I am kind of shooting from the hip, but every panel I saw showed her posing in some impractical goofy way in an effort to showcase her scantily-clad body as much as possible. Sure, this isn't the first time we've seen this kind of treatment of female characters in comics (and won't be the last), but it sure is shitty writing.


Now now,

1. During R.E.BE.L.S. Starfire engaged in consequence-free, non-relationaship sex with Captain Comet. This was a specific point with the character.

2. This is a reboot. Of course the character won't be the same as it was before. One of the premise of a reboot is that the old character did not work. Yes they kept some characters the same but those characters proved very profitable and thus worked as their old selves. Starfire or the titles she was on sold well. Her old self was not raking in the cash so out she goes and in with the new. I'm enjoying this new version.

3. The manner in which it's drawn is pretty irrelevant, especially considering the artist, who is known for drawing in this fashion. There are artists who excel at drawing beefcake (male characters in the same fashion) and no one ever seems to have an issue with that.

4. There was nothing LCD about it. Why she acts this way is a mystery but at the same time is meant serve as plot point. Each character will be addressed more than likely.

5. I don't see this as shitty writing, nor is it sexist. It's actually quite clever in how much of the information about Starfire that can be trusted is found to be very little: She feels uneasy on earth, claims she cannot tell the two humans apart (yet she remembers their name with no problem indicating that such may or may not be the case), and has sex freely (and shows considerable defiance when opposed on this point). Tony Stark does this and no one claims sexism, yet we claims sexism with this character? We claim sexism when She-Hulk does it? Oye. Nothing sexist here. All other claims are from Todd, who seems to be somewhat full of himself (he says that she's crazy for him, she shows that she's not), making him an unreliable character for information. I see this as the "unreliable narrator" device utilized in a clever way. Then again, works that use this tend to run into problems as far as acceptance from the general populace is concerned, for example, All-Star Batman and Robin (how obvious is it that I want to repost (if I can find it) my comment on how All-Star Batman was one of the best series in modern literature :lol: ).

6. It is at best akin to a loud action movie. It is aimed at a specific demographic.

7. I know you're not advocating this but it tends to come up in this kind of discussion so I'm shooting it off while I'm still thinking of it:
Personally, in toning things down in all comics and making them all the same or adhere to the same standard is one of the things killing comics because it removes variety. Next thing, we will be complaining about violence in the comics and will want that to be removed as well (it already occurs actually). There's something for everyone but it seems some people would not want that. They do not want comics to have the same variety as the movie industry or the game industry or even literature (if Romance novels were geared towards men, people would most likely call that sexist). This seems to be a strategy of the new 52, which is create something for everyone, some titles for everyone's sensibilities, others geared towards other demographics. This is why All-Star Western was released. I won't bother with it because I don't care about westerns but others do and will get it and if DC is smart, they will keep all the classic elements of a western in the comic, as opposed to toning things down or making changes to bring in "everyone". Everyone will never be satisfied no matter what one does.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby Batman25JM » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:33 pm

Red Hood and the Outlaws #1

I liked it. I wasn't in love with it or anything, but I enjoyed reading it. I really dug the art. I love that it ends with a "To Be Explained".
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby elijahdprophet » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:38 am

I like the idea of Jason and Roy running around as the fuck up ex sidekicks. It does toss another pile of questions into the jumble that is existing continuity, but whatever.

I like the bat symbol on Red Hood, I don't like Roy's tattoos.

Sexy detached Starfire doesn't bother me too much. Honestly over the years we haven't had enough aliens who think or act in alien ways in my opinion. I liked Starfire when she was on adventures in space with Animal Man, and I am curious how much of her established history is intact post Titans. I honestly didn't think any of the classic Teen Titans stuff was still going to be on record, but I guess if you can't mess with any of the Bat family Dick must have been a Titan at some point. The writing on this book felt like it took itself less seriously than Winnick on Catwoman, and the sex was a minor middle of the book plot point instead of the cliffhanger, so it didn't feel as out of place I guess.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby jaydee74 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:18 pm

This wasn't bad. Nothing to write home about but I didn't hate it. I'm glad Roy has both arms. I like Jason's costume. This isn't something I'm going to stick around for but it's wasn't terrible.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby Batman25JM » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:01 pm

Starfire was sold into slavery, right? Was she ever a sex slave? If so that would more than explain any promiscuous behavior on her part.

I do like that Roy has both arms, but I hate the tattoos. I'm assuming that Lian never existed. It seems that way anyway.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby D-Rock » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:20 pm

Batman25JM wrote:Starfire was sold into slavery, right? Was she ever a sex slave?


Yes
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby Strider » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:54 pm

Batman25JM wrote:Starfire was sold into slavery, right? Was she ever a sex slave? If so that would more than explain any promiscuous behavior on her part.


Yes.

Because sex slaves become promiscuous because they looooove sex so much. ;)
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby prescribeddrone » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:04 am

I did not expect to pick this up but I did and enjoyed it.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby Joshua » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:45 am

Strider wrote:
Batman25JM wrote:Starfire was sold into slavery, right? Was she ever a sex slave? If so that would more than explain any promiscuous behavior on her part.


Yes.

Because sex slaves become promiscuous because they looooove sex so much. ;)

I was thinking something similar. I'm not a psychologist, but I think someone who's been a sex slave would be prone to avoid sexual encounters.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby Batman25JM » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:02 am

Victims of sexual abuse often engage in risky sexual behavior.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby elijahdprophet » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:03 am

Joshua wrote:
Strider wrote:
Batman25JM wrote:Starfire was sold into slavery, right? Was she ever a sex slave? If so that would more than explain any promiscuous behavior on her part.


Yes.

Because sex slaves become promiscuous because they looooove sex so much. ;)

I was thinking something similar. I'm not a psychologist, but I think someone who's been a sex slave would be prone to avoid sexual encounters.


It can go either way, actually, but generally (extremely generally) speaking the victims of sex crimes will tend towards extremes in behavior when it comes to their own sexuality. It is not uncommon for the desire to reclaim one's ownership of their sexuality to lead to becoming more sexually aggressive. This can happen more frequently in cases where the crimes occurred in childhood because there was never a chance for a healthy sexual identity to develop.

Now that isn't to say that this is at ALL what they were trying to convey in this book, because I don't get the feeling this is going to be a terribly deep emotional roller coaster of a series.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby Joshua » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:15 am

Batman25JM wrote:Victims of sexual abuse often engage in risky sexual behavior.

elijahdprophet wrote:It can go either way, actually, but generally (extremely generally) speaking the victims of sex crimes will tend towards extremes in behavior when it comes to their own sexuality. It is not uncommon for the desire to reclaim one's ownership of their sexuality to lead to becoming more sexually aggressive. This can happen more frequently in cases where the crimes occurred in childhood because there was never a chance for a healthy sexual identity to develop.

Fair enough. So which is it, is Starfire a strong, liberated woman who has no problem going after she wants, like so many people have been saying, or is she an abused victim who is having difficulty coping with her past?
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby elijahdprophet » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:45 am

Joshua wrote:
Batman25JM wrote:Victims of sexual abuse often engage in risky sexual behavior.

elijahdprophet wrote:It can go either way, actually, but generally (extremely generally) speaking the victims of sex crimes will tend towards extremes in behavior when it comes to their own sexuality. It is not uncommon for the desire to reclaim one's ownership of their sexuality to lead to becoming more sexually aggressive. This can happen more frequently in cases where the crimes occurred in childhood because there was never a chance for a healthy sexual identity to develop.

Fair enough. So which is it, is Starfire a strong, liberated woman who has no problem going after she wants, like so many people have been saying, or is she an abused victim who is having difficulty coping with her past?


That would depend on what her actual new continuity backstory is and which direction the writers choose to go. One issue, and really only like 5 pages since this isn't a Starfire book, isn't enough to base an opinion. Of course that would require reading more of a book that is kind of meh at best.
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Re: Red Hood and the Outlaws

Postby Strider » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:23 pm

Batman25JM wrote:Victims of sexual abuse often engage in risky sexual behavior.


Shit.

I forgot you were a Psych Major and know what you're talking about. :lol:
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